Indiana grandparents petitioning for visitation face long odds

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Indiana Lawyer Focus

Thirteen years after the Supreme Court of the United States issued its watershed ruling in a grandparent visitation dispute, Indiana, like many states, continues to struggle to balance the rights of parents to raise their children with the desire of grandparents to be a part of the children’s lives.

The Indiana statute which governs grandparent visitation has remained largely unchanged for years while state courts have been issuing opinions that have narrowed the statute’s interpretation. At the same time, ironically, members of the Indiana General Assembly have been introducing bills that would expand the law.

zoeller-brian-mug Zoeller

Compounding the situation are families who have little patience and can act harshly toward their own relatives for seemingly minor slights.

Attorneys say the Indiana Code should be revised. However, their agreement quickly unravels when they get to the details of how it should be rewritten. Their differing ideas reflect the struggle in the courts and the Statehouse and indicate solutions may not come quickly.

Prior to 2000, states were actually broadening their visitation rights laws to give grandparents greater ability to spend time with their grandchildren. That changed when the U.S. Supreme Court handed down Troxel v. Granville, 530 U.S. 57 (2000).

There, the court considered a case that centered on a Washington state law that let “any person” petition for visitation rights and allowed the court to grant those petitions whenever the best interests of the child is served by that visitation.

The majority found the Washington law violated the U.S. Constitution’s Due Process Clause in the 14th Amendment. Specifically, the court pointed to the presumption that fit parents act in the best interest of their children and as long as the parents are fit, the state will have no grounds to question the parents’ decisions for raising their children.

Parents have a right to raise their children as they see best.

Brian Zoeller, chair of the family law practice group at Cohen & Malad LLP called Troxel a “watershed case” that changed everything. Since the high court issued the decision, cases in Indiana have narrowed the scope of the state’s visitation statute.

The state’s caselaw has taken the teeth from the statute, he said, and given grandparents the greater burden when petitioning to see their grandchildren. Consequently, grandparents bringing legal action are less likely to win in court.

Indiana Code 31-17-5 enables grandparents to seek visitation rights in three circumstances – the child’s parents are deceased; the child’s parents are divorced; or the child was born out of wedlock. Zoeller pointed out if the two parents are married or if the single parent is allowing the grandparents some contact, no matter how limited, the grandparents have no grounds to petition the court.

So difficult are these cases to prove that attorney Deborah Agard estimates she only files a petition once for every nine or 10 grandparents who come to her asking for help. She explained she does not want to waste their time and money when she knows the petition will be denied.

Opposing expansion

The problem, Agard said, is the statute is written, and is being interpreted, too narrowly. She advocates listing specific factors, like those that the child custody statute puts forth, for the court to consider in grandparent visitation cases.

In almost every session during the last few years, the Indiana General Assembly has entertained one or more bills regarding grandparent visitation rights. Mainly, these bills have sought to expand visitation rights to great-grandparents. Other measures have attempted to give grandparents the ability to seek visitation even when families are intact.

None have been enacted into law.

One group that has actively opposed expanding grandparent visitation rights in Indiana and other states is the Coalition for the Restoration of Parental Rights, a national organization that exists primarily in cyberspace. Bloomington attorney Karen Wyle has represented the group and advocated for parental rights ever since she wrote an amicus brief in Troxel.

The group has worked to narrow and even eliminate grandparent visitation rights. The reasons for opposing grandparent visitation are varied, Wyle said, but she noted adults do not automatically become cookie-baking, kind-hearted individuals when their child produces a child.

wyle-karen-bw-mug Wyle

Some grandparents may be in denial about the effects their medication has on their behavior. Maybe they do not accept modern-day child-rearing techniques or are not willing to step back and allow the parent to raise the child. Sometimes grandparents are simply not safe or good role models.

Wyle applauded the Troxel decision that underscored the fundamental right of parents to raise their children as they see fit. She has proposed her own revisions to Indiana statute, namely to make the grandparent visitation law conform to caselaw so the presumption in favor of the parent is included.

Zoeller, too, supports writing the statute so it reflects caselaw. Currently, reading the grandparent visitation law without knowing about the court cases that have since added key interpretations can lead to misconceptions, he said.

Moreover, attempts in the Statehouse to broaden visitation rights would likely be struck down by the courts.

“I don’t see what the Legislature could do except, I think, they could make the statute conform to caselaw,” he said.

Human costs

Although the Troxel ruling gave parents the trump card, the decision still left several issues for the lower courts to figure out.

Wyle said the unresolved issues include what a grandparent must prove to rebut the presumption that the parent’s decision to limit or deny visitation is in the child’s best interest, and whether the grandparent has to prove that by a preponderance of evidence or by the higher standard of clear and convincing evidence.

Also, the question remains if there are any procedural thresholds to clear before allowing the lawsuit to proceed, especially in light of the damage that litigation can inflict on custodial families.

“I think litigation is a terrible way to solve these problems,” Wyle said. “It tends to make them worse in a permanent or semi-permanent way.”

In fact, she views grandparent visitation lawsuits as almost counterproductive. The financial resources that would have gone to support the child are redirected to the attorney, which is not in the best interest of the youngster, she said.

More than the financial consequences, Zoeller has seen the emotional cost of grandparents and parents squaring off in court. Hurtful comments and anger can linger long after the court issues a decision.

He remembered one case where the mother allowed her 9-year-old son to be put on the witness stand. Zoeller objected, but the court overruled. On the stand, the boy told opposing counsel he did not want to spend time with his grandfather. However, later he broke down in tears when he recounted that his grandfather always said he loved him and couldn’t wait to see him again.

“There is a human cost to these lawsuits,” Zoeller said.•


  • Grand parents are important too
    If anything happens to a child in the care of the parent. First thing society will ask where were the grandparents how come they did not try to get their grandbaby out of the care from the addict parent... It comes down to money and corruption among those that look the other way. I have tried to get answers regarding childs rights everyone laughs and shuts their door. If its not happening in their family they donot care
  • Grandparent Alienation
    I agree. Indiana needs to step up their act. Grandparents deserve to see their grandkids. Who do we go to for assistance? How do we make this stop? I intend to fight for my rights and my grandkids rights. My grandchildren need better role models and their parents are not that.
    The Indiana Courts do not have the best interest of the children like they should. They have the best interest of the parent, sure, some grandparents just want to be a thorn in their children's lives but majority of us grandparents do not want the responsibility of raising our grandchildren unless it is totally necessary. Some day these children will grow up and probably end up in therapy or in prison because the justice system let them down. I hope someday someone will care and take the demands for grandparents rights seriously, until then, Indiana Courts do not give a damn!!!
  • Worried Nana
    My daughter, her boyfriend and my grandchild lived with me for the first year of my grandchild's life then they all moved in with his parents. My daughter left. My grandchild spent weekends with me and stayed with the other grandparents through the week. My daughter is now married to a man who is a convicted felon. (for nearly beating another child to death!! He has 3 LIFETIME protective orders against him and TWO are CHILDREN!) Because I disapprove of this, my daughter is now saying I can NEVER see my grandchild again (as if her showing up finally gives her a superpower!) and I have not seen her for two weeks now. My grandchild cries to come to my house and cries because she does NOT want to go to my daughter's house. Her husband has already made threats toward my grandchild and says she needs PUNISHED more often and more severely! The two of them fight constantly! I'm NOT the type of Nana to ignore such things and "wait it out" or kiss ANYONE'S butt to see a child that I have helped raise for the past 4 years! I would rather go to court and plead my case in hopes that life, as she knows it, can continue unchanged for my grandchild's sake...but if the courts tie my hands and something happens to my grandchild...I WILL SUE THIS STATE! Grandparents do NOT want to raise their grandchildren! We are TIRED! Grandparents want to be GRANDPARENTS and we want SAFE AND HAPPY GRANDCHILDREN! It's only when that is placed at risk when we turn straight SAVAGE! I don't care who you are...parent, courts, step parent or the family dog...YOU DO NOT MESS WITH THE GRANDKIDS! Sadly, most of the time, these court cases are due to the parents' very poor decision making skills and straight up vindictiveness. They use their kids as pawns in their spiteful games. They don't care if the child gets long as they win the right to use the child as their superpower over the grandparents. As IF that's even fair or right to the child or grandparents! If giving a child DNA gives you the right to do this to people who have raised the child and gives you the right to put that child in danger if you "see fit" then there is something VERY WRONG with our court system!
  • Denied
    I filed a petition and was denied because I was a non conforming party. I have to refile under a new motion. I have no clue how to do that. Any advice?
  • True victim
    Which is exactly what this grandparent has done. She didn't win. She was appealed to by the mother of those kids. Meanwhile, the father was pushed out due to her taking her own son to court and causing serious discord. Evil does exist and sometimes it wins.
  • Positive posts for once
    Im very happy for you, getting ready to go down that dirt road myself, and im praying for the same outcome, because it IS sometimes in the childs best interest to have visitation with grandparents. Thanks for sharing, needed to hear some positive posts for once.
  • How
    Hi I am wondering how you were able to accomplish this? My daughter passed away and my 9 year old granddaughter has lived with us for 90% of her life, and we are in a custody battle with her father, who has been asbent in her life for over 5 years no contact no support not a thing, my daughter even tried to get child support from him and they could not find him to serve him, and she just dropped it. If she had not passed away he wouldn't be trying to be in her life still. I think his motive is based on back child support future support and knowing he will get social security money from my daughter passing away. Her father lives in a different State and has cut off ties from all family members. Her whole family lives here where we live. If forced to go back she would be isolated from everyone she knows and loves and also would be kept from seeing us if he were to get custody. She doesn't remember him , she is scared and doesn't want to go, we are already 21000.00 for attorney cost and not sure if we can stretch it anymore and he got appointed an attorney and money to travel back and forth for court, I don't know what to do, or what to tell my granddaughter who doesn't realize the situation that she might be forced to go somewhere without knowing anyone. Or being able to see us later. Please HElp
    I would like to know how is it possible to petition to see our grand baby we live out of state and the parents are divorced. The mother was contacted to see if we are allowed to see the child but she flatly stated no and not to contact her at all . The father has custody and does limited phone calls but I am afraid that it will end also since I tried in good faith to talk to the child's mother we are the material grand parents
  • Grandparent Visitation
  • Grandparents
    Contact Lea Shelemey attorney in porter county Indiana. She just helped us win our case...she is awesome...
  • Grandparents rights
    We won!!!! It was a long expensive battle but we did it. I just wanted people to know it is possible. And if someone can point me I. The right direction to help change the way the courts look as grandparents as only grandparents. The courts assume the parent does what is in the best interest of the child...and the court is wrong. A lot of the time it is spite and vindictiveness that separates grandparents and grandchildren. It should not have been this long and hard and expensive...Something needs to change...
    • Child living in fear
      Ok I have read some of the stories on here. What a out a parent that had nothing to do with their child for 7 years and then wanted to be in his life only after having 3 other kids of which 2 do not live with them full lime and are by different men and only wanting something to do with this child after marrying someone she only knew for 2 months. The child is scared of her husband and doesn't want to live with his mom and begs me to bring him to the only home he has ever known. After the child begs me to come over to his mothers everyday after she picks him up and his mother knows I am coming over they threaten the child telling him if he cries when I leave he will be grounded to his room. Her husband then came outside and started going off on me in front of the child for no reason. The child was already upset and begging me to take him to my moms and her husband doing that only made it worse for the child. I kept telling the child he would be ok that he needed to go inside but he was extremely upset saying his mothers house was not his home. They also tell him things that are not true at all. Her husband has blocked the door not letting him outside. He gets yelled at by both of them also. He is a totally different child and not for the better. They knew I was coming over but I was not on their property at all. I was on the other side of the street and for her husband(not his father to go off on me in front of him was wrong. She even went so far as to call his grandpa and lie to him also.
    • grandparent rights
      I am a maternal grandmother of my daughters son. She was murdered last June in Indianapolis. She is one the unsolved homicides of 2015. However the father of my grandson is not allowing me to see or have any visitation with my grandson. I know that I am suppose to petition the courts and I am having a difficult finding the correct forms to file. I am desperate and frustrated in this matter. I can not afford an lawyer and I have been to two free legal help lawyers and they will not help me in this case. I have made several attempts to contact the father. They seem to move a lot and they keep changing their phone numbers. Please if you could help me in any way with this matter I would much appreciate it. Thank you
      • Help
        If u get any info on your question please let me know we r going through the same am r so heart broken an scared
        • Confused and Upset
          I haven't seen my father in almost 10 years. He has wanted nothing to do with me almost my entire life. My child is less than a year old now, and my father is threatening to sue for visitation. He is a stranger to me and my daughter. Is there really any way a court would even consider his case? I do not want him in my life or my child's life.
        • I don't think so
          What about the single mothers trying to protect their children from mentally abusive grandparents who hide who they truly are behind mounds and years of medication and have mentally abused their own children to the point of one being in jail and the other was on drugs. What about trying to keep those children from being subjected to the same abuse they were as a child? I can understand in the instance about the parent losing their right and the grandparent having raised the child previously! But not all circumstances grant this being OKAY! some of us parents are trying to protect our children and yes it is our God given right to make those decisions for our children as adults!! This is not just black and white and I will fight every ounce of this to get denied
        • Harmful Grandparents
          What about the grandparent/s who are harmful to their grandchildren? Like a grandparent who trys to turn the child againgst parents because they disagree with parents. Not all grandparents are sweet loving people, some actually have an evil streak in them. I am actually dealing with such an evil person. My mother doesn't care about my child, never even cared to visit my child until I cut off contact due to things she had done to my family. Now she pretends to be a victim of grandparent alienation and people buy into it. That women is harmful to my child yet you people want laws that will allow her deception and evil around my child and other children in the same position is discusting and not in the childs best interest!
          • Grandparents Rights Indiana
            I'm going to court the beginning of Oct. 2015 to establish visitation and request my daughters visits while she is in jail. I raised my grandchild for the first two and half years. She was born out of wedlock and the father and his adopted mother wantwd her aborted, they went as far as sueing my daughter for abortion money back 5mo. After my grandchild was born. Now because of depression and drug abuse my daughter lost custody 2 and a half years ago. Everyting went wrong in court when i went for custody my lawyer was thrown out and a replacment could only stay 45 min. The judge would not allow a postponement. So the father won. Now he is aleinating me and my daughter. No matter the amount of time spent getting help for my daughter and her doing better he runs her in the ground to the point of suicide because he wants her to be in a relationship with him. It is a sick game of using my grandchild as a pawn to make my daughter suffer for not wanting to be with him. I became the intervener in the case when my daughter first got into trouble. Because of this they gave me her visitation. Im hoping to get it again there is questions of abuse on his part and I want to make sure my grandchild is doing alright. I really dont understand how the parents have rights to walk in and do whatever they want when the refuse to stand up and raise the child at first . Why should it take two and a half years to decide you want to raise your child.The father used me so he could finish college get a job and stop paying support by getting custody. Support he was paying my daughter that I never saw.
          • Paging Lilly Black
            Because one post with all of their names just would not do?
          • Grandparents rights
            Hello Jackie, Please go to 'LILLY BLACK" GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS ADVOCATES NATIONAL DELEGATION of the USA. I have a post there where i will be requesting a meeting with the Indiana Senators. We all know there is power in numbers. Please say you will go or you can private message me. WE MUST NEVER GIVE UP ON OUR GRANDCHILDREN. WE ARE GETTING CLOSER.We have to stop this EMOTIONAL & MENTAL ABUSE. PLEASE JOIN ME IN THIS IMPORTANT FIGHT! THANK YOU JACKIE
            • Grandparents rights
              Hello KRISTI PAYNE, Please go to 'LILLY BLACK" & send a friend request into the INDIANA-GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS ADVOCATES NATIONAL DELEGATION of the USA.I have a post there i will be requesting a meeting with the Indiana Senators in October. We all know there is power in numbers, PLEASE say you will go!THIS EMOTIONAL & MENTAL ABUSE OF OUR GRANDCHILDREN HAS TO STOP!!!! WE CAN'T GIVE UP NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE ARE BEATEN DOWN. WE ARE GETTING CLOSER!!!!! PLEASE HELP ME BE A VOICE!!! THANK YOU KRISTI PAYNE
            • Grandparents rights
              Hello Cheryl, Please go to 'LILLY BLACK" & send a friend request into the INDIANA-GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS ADVOCATES NATIONAL DELEGATION of the USA.I have a post there i will be requesting a meeting with the Indiana Senators in October. We all know there is power in numbers, PLEASE say you will go!THIS EMOTIONAL & MENTAL ABUSE OF OUR GRANDCHILDREN HAS TO STOP!!!! WE CAN'T GIVE UP NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE ARE BEATEN DOWN. WE ARE GETTING CLOSER!!!!! THANK YOU CHERYL
              • Grandparents rights
                Hello Cheryl, Please go to 'LILLY BLACK" & send a friend request into the INDIANA-GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS ADVOCATES NATIONAL DELEGATION of the USA.I have a post there i will be requesting a meeting with the Indiana Senators in October. We all know there is power in numbers, PLEASE say you will go!THIS EMOTIONAL & MENTAL ABUSE OF OUR GRANDCHILDREN HAS TO STOP!!!! WE CAN'T GIVE UP NO MATTER HOW MUCH WE ARE BEATEN DOWN. WE ARE GETTING CLOSER!!!!! THANK YOU CHERYL
              • Grandparents rights
                Hello Eugenia, Please go to "LILLY BLACK" & send a friend request for the INDIANA-GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS ADVOCATES NATIONAL DELEGATION of the USA. I have a post where I'm requesting a meeting with the Senators of Indiana in OCTOBER.We all know there is power in numbers.Please sign up to go you can PM. We are getting closer LET US NEVER GIVE UP!!!!!! Thank You Eugenia
              • Grandparents rights
                Hello Tammy, Please go "LILLY BLACK" & send a friend request for the INDIANA-GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS ADVOCATES NATIONAL DELEGATION OF THE USA. I have a post there where I'm asking for a meeting with the INDIANA SENATORS & asking GRANDPARENTS to sign up to go.We all know there is power in numbers. This EMOTIONAL & MENTAL ABUSE TO OUR GRANDCHILDREN HAS TO STOP. WE ARE GETTING CLOSER!!!! Thank You Tammy
              • Grandparents rights
                William, Please go to "LIlly BLACK" page & send a friend request into INDIANA- GRANDPARENTS RIGHTS ADVOCATES NATIONAL DELEGATION OF THE USA.I have a notice about meeting with the Indiana Lawmakers in October & I'm asking for people to Private Message me if they will be willing to go as a show of force & possibly tell their story. we are getting closer, DON'T GIVE UP NOW!!!!!!
              • Legal Question
                I recently filed a petition for rights to see my grandchildren and was denied...just simply denied. Repeated request for the facts and findings to which the judge came about his decision to deny, (IC 31-17-5-6) have been totally ignored. Am I misunderstanding this law? Can the judge just deny, without any further explanation?
                • Grandparents rights
                  See, I can understand if the child is in danger or the parents are unfit and the grandparents what to be able to see their grandchild or have rights to them. Right now I am going threw something on the opposite end. I am a single mother who is clean and has no criminal background yet my daughter's father's mother has started threatening me saying she's wanting to sue me for visitation. I let her come see her when she asks too. I do not let her take her anywhere because I don't know if she will run off. My daughters father has even said she wouldn't put it passed her. Let alone the charges that are on her husband and one that was on her 10 years or so ago but still. I don't feel ok with my child being around that without me or someone else there. I try to be nice I do but its getting to the point where I am done and I pray it would be ok.
                • grandparents rights
                  My daughter was married less than a week and her new hubbys picture was on tv for drugs and now I havent't seen my granddaughters since st patricks day. when my daughter left her marriage from her childrens Father she lived with me with my grand daughters and that was ok but I called her on the new hubby who is in jail and said didn't want this around my grandkids not unreasonable request and I get shut out for her mistake
                • The laws need to change!
                  I totally agree with the previous posters to this story. Not only should grandparents be recognized by the law, aunts and uncles should be as well. If a parent is not making logical choices and did something that causes them to lose their child to DCS, like causing the death of another child, obviously their opinion really should not hold much weight when it comes to placing the surviving child with family, especially if that family passes DCS scrutiny in their home county. DCS needs to get on the same page and quit being at odds with each other. I thought the purpose of DCS was to protect children, it seems to me as though, for the most part, they worry more about the parents and what the parents say, never mind the fact that said parent is the cause of their childs death. I guess if you don't have someone footing your legal bills, you don't stand a chance, even if you are the best choice for placement.
                  • Grandparents rights when parents are absent
                    This law appears to be built around parents' right to raise children as they see fit. We are the grandparents of a child removed from parents due to substance abuse and domestic violence - and only after we made the call to Child Protective Services. The child was placed with the paternal aunt and uncle pending reunification with the parents. Now the parents are both absent parents and we have filed for Guardianship to have the child live with us and his 2 siblings. We have been trying to re-establish the previous relationship we had with the child and the State is using this law to hinder our efforts. Should this law even be considered when both parents are absent? I think not.
                  • Grandparents rights
                    I am a Maternal Grandparent of a child,who has parents who both have a history of supstance abuse,& alcolism,& domestic violene by the biological father,towards the mother & child, resulting in ther father,being incaraserated 2times in the Indiana Department of corrections,What I can not understand is that eventhough D.C.F. has been involved in this suitation,& myself & my husdand the maternal grandfather,who have raised the monor child & have provided financial suport for this child, do to the parents inable,or refusial to provide for the minor child,have NO RIGHTS@ ALL! We can't even protect the child from this lifestyle,due to the unjust laws in the State of Indiana,& other States as well, this is why,so many children end up dead,due to their parents abuse,as a child of the 70's growing up in Indiana with both of parents being subsatance abusers& myself & my sibling been repeatly physically abused by our mother,our grandparents,or other realitives,had no legal rights,nor did the State of Indiana do onything to protect myself or my sibling from this abuse. It really upsets me to the point of tears,that my grandchild as do many,many children have to endure this type of life,when children are allowed to remain with their parents& be raised by parents,as parents see fit,with no legal consequences whatsoever;something has to be done,& now,it's a shame that the laws are still the same ,as they were in the 70's when I was a child,somthing's got to change.H ow many more children have to suffer,emotional, physical, & God forbid even sexual abuse,& many times loose their lifes @ the hands of their own parents,or associates of their parent; there are so many wonderful ,loving Grandparents,fit,& very willing to give their Grandchildren the lives they so deserve,what can't the lawmaker's understand,a child does'nt ask to be born,they are innocent human beings,that are unable to protect themselves,yet when people,like loving Grandparents try to step up & protect,they can't do anything to keep the children,because of some rediculious,unface & unjust laws. I f I may be so bold to ask, W.W.J.D.? Would he want this for his inocent defenceless precious children? the answer is NO! I as a voter & lifelong residentof I ndiana,can't stress it enough,the laws need to be changed a.s.a.p., think of the children. Thank-you for letting me express my opionion,& please as lawmakers work to get the higher courts to think of our children & change the laws.
                  • Child Rights
                    Funny how this discussion has little if anything to do with protecting the children, only the parents. Hypothetically, a child in the home of parents who continually are engaged with meth (but are "unfortunately" never caught in the act by the police or CPS), are physically abusive to one another, even to the point of the wife nearly dying twice and ending in critical condition in Wishard hospital (and both h & w denying any abuse) whatsoever, and who continually berate a child so as to break her spirit, is considered by Indiana law (and some attorneys) as "being raised as the parents see fit." This is all just hypothetical, of course. Obviously nothing like this could ever really happen because parents would never do such a thing to their children. Like it or not, this is what the child gets. In Indiana law, "grandparents" is a four letter word. There is a sign that is often displayed: "Zero tolerance for family abuse." This slogan is nothing but hogwash and political posturing. When grandparents try to to intercede for the child, they are slapped down by ridiculous laws and meddling lawyers who know nothing about the situation and who care nothing about the children. When a 5 year old child (or even an 11 year old) begs for help from the clutches of such parents, grandparents are powerless to help because of laws designed by people who have no real concern to advocate for such children. Because I am a grandparent, I am, by definition, a parent. I am actually all for parents having primary place and voice in their children's lives. Yes!! In fact they should raise their own kids! But they also have the **responsibility** to protect those children. And when they do not, grandparents should have the legal ability to reach out past the parents (who have sometimes not grown up yet, even at 30) and advocate for those little children. Are law-makers and lawyers really so incapable that they cannot make laws that protect the rights of all its citizens, whether parents, grandparents, and especially the children? If they really are that incapable, then they should stop meddling in families and get out of the way. Of course, that will never happen. Because law is not really about justice.

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