ILNews

Law school ranking rumble

Back to TopCommentsE-mailPrintBookmark and Share

University of Notre Dame Law School Dean Nell Jessup Newton admits she has mixed feelings about the annual law school rankings compiled and published by U.S. News & World Report.

On the one hand, the rankings provide some good consumer information to students thinking about getting a legal education. But on the other hand, Newton said, the rankings have too much influence on the choices made by students, hiring practices of law firms and even the behavior of law schools in general.

Since the different groups do pay attention and blogs spotlight even the slightest movements on the list, law school deans cannot ignore the rankings no matter how much they may disparage them. Commonly, deans complain the comparison by U.S. News focuses on things that have little impact on the quality of education and do not measure the elements that schools value.

Austen Parrish, still in his first semester as dean of Indiana University Maurer School of Law, holds a tempered view of the survey. They are what they are, he said, and smart deans do not run their law schools based on the U.S. News evaluation.

Still, Parrish acknowledges deans are not immune to the excitement or disappointment caused by a high or low ranking.

“I think as much as deans rail against it,” he said, “if they move up in the ranking, they celebrate pretty hard.”
 

valpo-15col.jpg Valparaiso University Law School has always been listed in the “rank not published” section of the U.S. News & World Report rankings because the rank falls below its cutoff. (Photo submitted)

For the 2015 U.S. News Law School Rankings, Notre Dame placed at No. 26 and Indiana University Maurer School of Law shared the No. 29 slot with the University of Georgia. Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law tied for No. 87 with six other schools including Michigan State University and the University of Louisville.

Valparaiso University Law School retained its listing as “rank not published” because its placement fell below the cutoff line. The Indiana Tech Law School was not part of the rankings because it has not been accredited by the American Bar Association.

How it works

Each year the news magazine issues its best graduate schools lists, ranking law schools, medical schools, engineering schools, business schools, and undergraduate programs, among others. For law schools, the annual list has a great impact because U.S. News is about the only organization that reviews the accredited law schools in the country. The legal blog, Above the Law, created its own Top 50 law schools list last year based on different criteria, mostly employment outcomes.

According to U.S. News, the methodology behind its rankings measures 12 separate elements and then applies a weighted average so all the elements do not have an equal impact on the overall score. The 12 factors include assessments by law school deans as well as lawyers and judges, median LSAT score and median undergraduate GPA of the incoming class, expenditure per student, and bar passage rates, along with employment rate for graduates nine months after completing law school.

Bob Morse, director of data research for U.S. News & World Report, explained the rankings include budget, job placement and prestige because the focus is from a student perspective. The survey does not measure faculty achievement or scholarly activity but instead concentrates on the factors that students can understand and use.

“Our intent isn’t to be a powerful force with the rankings,” Morse said. “U.S. News did not start doing the rankings with the goal of becoming an influential force in law school policy.”

However, Morse pointed out that of all the academic disciplines ranked by the magazine whether medicine, library science or any of the others, the strongest reaction to the listing comes from the law schools. One reason is because the other schools are critiqued by a couple of different organizations, but among law schools, U.S. News holds almost a monopoly on the survey.

At Notre Dame’s Mendoza College of Business, Dean Roger Huang agreed the rankings from U.S. News do not hold as much sway with business schools.

Yet, he said if his college would drop in the rankings, he would reassure the alumni that the decline was not the result of something the college did or di

ranking-graphic-2col.jpg

d not do. In addition, Huang would emphasize the institution was sticking to its mission of educating the hearts and minds of the students to be ethical and use business in the proper way.

“We do not run our program to conform to the rankings,” Huang said.

Newton, Parrish and Andrew Klein, dean of the Indiana University Robert H. McKinney School of Law, echoed Huang. In addition, they all maintained the U.S. News survey does not give a complete picture of their schools, and they questioned the magazine’s methodology.
As an example, Klein pointed out that a small two-point move in a school’s median LSAT can cause a dramatic swing in the rankings but have zero impact on the quality of education.

Parrish attributed IU Maurer’s slip in the rankings to a drop in the school’s job placement. The Bloomington law school declined four places in the 2015 listing to No. 29 because, he explained, personnel problems in the school’s placement office lowered the employment rate for students in the class of 2012. Since then, the law school has hired a new assistant dean of career and professional development, and the employment rate for the class of 2013 is 11 percent higher than for 2012.

“A one-year blip isn’t any concern to me at all,” Parrish said.

At Notre Dame, Newton has counseled students who enroll in programs solely based on the rankings. She has seen students forgo scholarships from law schools located in the area of the country they want to practice and instead pay full tuition and go someplace they don’t intend to stay just to attend an institution that is one or two slots higher in the rankings.

Despite her concerns about the influence the rankings have and the lack of transparency behind the calculations, Newton has never contacted U.S. News to discuss the situation. The rankings are a website, she said, that does not draw on the expertise of journalists, statisticians or social scientists.

“I don’t respect them enough to engage with them,” she said. “I don’t think they are going to listen to me.”

Morse said U.S. News does not tailor the rankings in response to law schools’ complaints and criticisms. Consequently, the rankings have credibility, he said, because the magazine is an independent judge.

He then noted what he called the hypocrisy of the law schools. For all the griping law schools do, 66 percent of the deans respond when U.S. News requests information.

Law schools do have the option of not providing data and assessments to the news magazine, but Newton compared that option to the prisoner’s dilemma. Unless all the schools refuse to participate, those that do not return the forms will be punished with a lower ranking.

As such, Newton said she would not stop participating because she does not want Notre Dame to fall in the rankings. She does not want to hurt the students and alumni by having the school’s reputation downgraded.

Former IU McKinney dean Gary Roberts did not respond to U.S. News data requests for several years. When Klein became dean, the law school resumed submitting the data.

In fact, when Klein was interviewed for the dean position, he was asked about the rankings. He replied although the school was forced to pay attention to them, he would be ethical in reporting the data and not fudge it. He also asserted he would not make any changes that he thinks would diminish the program for the students just to do better in the rankings.

Klein agrees with Roberts that the rankings do not present an accurate portrayal of the quality of education offered at IU McKinney, but there is the need to be pragmatic because people pay attention.

“There are many flaws in the rankings,” Klein said. “I don’t think that U.S. News does a very good job of measuring the quality of an institution’s education. But, unfortunately, some people pay attention to the rankings. We were doing a disservice to our law school by not participating.”•

ADVERTISEMENT

  • Lawyers as the new priesthood
    Don't believe me, listen to Pacino: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6bC9w9cH-M
  • Law School as nation building
    Law school is social control the goal to produce a social product. As such it began after the Revolution and has nearly ruined us to this day: "“Scarcely any political question arises in the United States which is not resolved, sooner or later, into a judicial question. Hence all parties are obliged to borrow, in their daily controversies, the ideas, and even the language, peculiar to judicial proceedings. As most public men [i.e., politicians] are, or have been, legal practitioners, they introduce the customs and technicalities of their profession into the management of public affairs. The jury extends this habitude to all classes. The language of the law thus becomes, in some measure, a vulgar tongue; the spirit of the law, which is produced in the schools and courts of justice, gradually penetrates beyond their walls into the bosom of society, where it descends to the lowest classes, so that at last the whole people contract the habits and the tastes of the judicial magistrate.” ? Alexis de Tocqueville, Democracy in America
  • thanks for your relpy jane
    Thanks Jane. I think US News likes to move print and sell advertising so it makes up polls like this to keep some eyeballs on its fading magazine operation. A ranking like this helps create perception that propels the reality you refer to; nonetheless, I was referring to the overall quality of the education offered at these schools. I am modestly familiar with the course work and professorships of several law schools from Indiana and also including Chicago and I would say that, excepting University of Chicago which truly is a top tier school, the rest of them are not that different. Oh, some have fancier facilties, who can begrudge the beauty of the Notre Dame campus or Northwestern, some have bigger name professors, some have more access to better paying employers, but guess what, some of the "lower" schools actually prepare lawyers better than the more expensive ones. I think the biggest differences are in tuition, and selection criteria. The rest of it is mostly "sales puffing." I also think that law students should probably thank themselves if they don't enslave themselves to "Big Law" and all that entails. I know a few who would say its just not worth the money.
    • Applicants Should Care Because Some Employers Care
      Au contraire, Mr. Smith. Employers look beyond the quality of education received, and for that reason so should law school applicants. The reputation of a law school, including its rank in US News & World Report, does not make a graduate a better attorney. Yet, the reputation does heighten the appeal of the graduate's resume for employers. An internet search for beginner associate positions in larger cities occasionally renders listings for open positions that are only open to graduates from a Top 30 or Top 50 law school. While this requirement is uncommon, it indicates many employers' desire to hire graduates from schools with the greatest reputations. Other employers for whom graduation from a Top "X" law school is important may not be so frank about it as to include it in their postings. The bias towards hiring graduates of more prestigious law schools can be subtle and still impact hiring decisions. Many legal employers only have so much time or resources to devote to recruiting. On-campus interviews are a great tool, but they require practicing attorneys, often partners, to take a full day, sometimes more, off work to visit law schools and interview prospects. It is a great opportunity for employers and students alike to get connected. Many employers do not conduct OCI at every law school in the state. Some law firms that maintain offices across the nation, and not unusually overseas as well, do not have OCI at more than one school in a state. Whether employer bias towards graduates of law schools with greater reputations is overt or subtle, universal or uncommon, justified or not, the bias does exist. It makes a difference in some hiring decisions. If it makes a difference in some hiring decisions, applicants to law school who want a job after graduating should consider the reputation of the law schools to which they are applying.
    • who cares?
      Who cares about this, other than gullible law school applicants who think that a few notches up or down will matter? kl The quality of education offered for the 20s is not that different than the quality offered at the 100s level. Neglible difference. http://abovethelaw.com/2013/04/which-top-law-school-has-the-highest-percentage-of-underemployed-graduates/ Heres a better list:

      Post a comment to this story

      COMMENTS POLICY
      We reserve the right to remove any post that we feel is obscene, profane, vulgar, racist, sexually explicit, abusive, or hateful.
       
      You are legally responsible for what you post and your anonymity is not guaranteed.
       
      Posts that insult, defame, threaten, harass or abuse other readers or people mentioned in Indiana Lawyer editorial content are also subject to removal. Please respect the privacy of individuals and refrain from posting personal information.
       
      No solicitations, spamming or advertisements are allowed. Readers may post links to other informational websites that are relevant to the topic at hand, but please do not link to objectionable material.
       
      We may remove messages that are unrelated to the topic, encourage illegal activity, use all capital letters or are unreadable.
       

      Messages that are flagged by readers as objectionable will be reviewed and may or may not be removed. Please do not flag a post simply because you disagree with it.

      Sponsored by

      facebook - twitter on Facebook & Twitter

      Indiana State Bar Association

      Indianapolis Bar Association

      Evansville Bar Association

      Allen County Bar Association

      Indiana Lawyer on Facebook

      facebook
      ADVERTISEMENT
      Subscribe to Indiana Lawyer
      1. "Am I bugging you? I don't mean to bug ya." If what I wrote below is too much social philosophy for Indiana attorneys, just take ten this vacay to watch The Lego Movie with kiddies and sing along where appropriate: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=etzMjoH0rJw

      2. I've got some free speech to share here about who is at work via the cat's paw of the ACLU stamping out Christian observances.... 2 Thessalonians chap 2: "And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as a human word, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is indeed at work in you who believe. For you, brothers and sisters, became imitators of God’s churches in Judea, which are in Christ Jesus: You suffered from your own people the same things those churches suffered from the Jews who killed the Lord Jesus and the prophets and also drove us out. They displease God and are hostile to everyone in their effort to keep us from speaking to the Gentiles so that they may be saved. In this way they always heap up their sins to the limit. The wrath of God has come upon them at last."

      3. Did someone not tell people who have access to the Chevy Volts that it has a gas engine and will run just like a normal car? The batteries give the Volt approximately a 40 mile range, but after that the gas engine will propel the vehicle either directly through the transmission like any other car, or gas engine recharges the batteries depending on the conditions.

      4. Catholic, Lutheran, even the Baptists nuzzling the wolf! http://www.judicialwatch.org/press-room/press-releases/judicial-watch-documents-reveal-obama-hhs-paid-baptist-children-family-services-182129786-four-months-housing-illegal-alien-children/ YET where is the Progressivist outcry? Silent. I wonder why?

      5. Thank you, Honorable Ladies, and thank you, TIL, for this interesting interview. The most interesting question was the last one, which drew the least response. Could it be that NFP stamps are a threat to the very foundation of our common law American legal tradition, a throwback to the continental system that facilitated differing standards of justice? A throwback to Star Chamber’s protection of the landed gentry? If TIL ever again interviews this same panel, I would recommend inviting one known for voicing socio-legal dissent for the masses, maybe Welch, maybe Ogden, maybe our own John Smith? As demographics shift and our social cohesion precipitously drops, a consistent judicial core will become more and more important so that Justice and Equal Protection and Due Process are yet guiding stars. If those stars fall from our collective social horizon (and can they be seen even now through the haze of NFP opinions?) then what glue other than more NFP decisions and TRO’s and executive orders -- all backed by more and more lethally armed praetorians – will prop up our government institutions? And if and when we do arrive at such an end … will any then dare call that tyranny? Or will the cost of such dissent be too high to justify?

      ADVERTISEMENT